Understanding Negative Learning in Large Language Model Fine-tuning
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Introduction to the show: ident: AI Radio. Generated commentary on the latest Artificial Intelligence papers.
Tom: I'm Tom, and with me are Jane, Lu, senior AI researcher at Tsinghua, Meng, lead engineer at a mysterious AI startup and Lalam, the in-house Large Language Model.
Jane: Today's paper: "Understanding Negative Learning in Large Language Model Fine-tuning".
Tom: The gist Preference optimization (PO) is indispensable for large language models (LLMs), with fundamental methods such as direct preference optimization (DPO) and proximal policy optimization (PPO) achieving great success,
Jane: First, who's behind it and why it matters.
Title and authors: Tom: So we’re looking at this paper today called "Understanding Negative Learning in Large Language Model Fine-tuning". It's by Yue Wang, Qizhou Wang, Zizhuo Zhang, Gang Niu, Bo Han, and Masashi Sugiyama from TMLR Group at Hong Kong Baptist University and RIKEN AIP and The University of Tokyo.
Jane: It’s a deep dive into preference optimization methods like DPO and PPO to figure out the actual learning behavior underneath all that success we see with these techniques. Basically, they want to separate whether these methods are really acting like supervised learning or reinforcement learning when they are fine-tuning large language models.
Lu: The paper is trying to fill a gap because we usually just assume DPO is supervised and PPO is reinforcement learning, but this work looks at the optimization dynamics under an endpoint probe to reveal different algorithmic behaviors and explain why.
Meng: So, what's the big picture here? Are these methods actually behaving as we think they are during training?
Lalam: It’s about diagnosing how DPO and PPO move toward their final answers by looking at how their learning objectives change over time.
The paper's summary: Tom: The paper says they look at the gradient dot product between the learning objective and the expected negative log-likelihood of the final responses, which is described in Equation (three) on page two <ref:2512.00778#pg1>. This measurement tells you a lot about what’s happening during training.
Jane: They find that positive dot products across all of preference optimization suggest stable, targeted learning, which points toward supervised learning behavior, whereas near-zero or fluctuating values are more consistent with exploratory behavior ten twenty-six <ref:2512.00778#pg2,or fluctuating values are more consistent with exploratory behavior>.
Lu: For DPO specifically, they see that it exhibits supervised-like endpoint dynamics. They also look at how positive and negative learning jointly shape the targets, and they find that negative learning gradually takes over in shaping the targets as training progresses on page three <ref:2512.00778#pg1>.
Meng: So, for DPO, it starts with positive learning setting the target but eventually negative learning dominates how those final responses are shaped.
Lalam: And they also look at loss reweighting, and they found that this acts more like a regularizer—it downweights fully learned data rather than being a direct reward signal on page three <ref:2512.00778#pg1>.
The paper's improvements: Tom: The authors suggest several ways to control these dynamics through component-level interventions, looking at ablation studies on page four. They find that sometimes components that seem to hinder final responses can actually improve performance if you adjust their influence correctly on page four.
Jane: For DPO, they show that positive and negative learning interact in a mutually constraining way, but both y plus and y minus contribute to shaping those final implicit targets which can be different from just looking at y plus alone on page six.
Lu: In PPO, they observed that the middle- and top-weighted components actually have negative impacts on the final responses, with top-weighted data having a much stronger effect than low-weighted data on page seven.
Meng: This suggests that we can selectively control which parts of the preference data are influencing the model's learning dynamics to get better results, which is interesting for practical application.
Lalam: They introduce controlled variants like cDPO and cPPO to test these component-level interventions, showing that these controlled settings achieve improved performance in controlled situations on page four.
Conclusion: Tom: To wrap up the "Understanding Negative Learning in Large Language Model Fine-tuning" paper, the main point is that DPO shows supervised-like dynamics but with evolving roles for positive and negative learning, while PPO shows reinforcement-like dynamics with stable exploration.
Jane: The authors also found that loss reweighting isn't a reliable preference signal because larger weights don't always mean more contribution to target shaping; they often just act as a regularizer against overfitting on page six.
Lu: What this means for the field is that we might need to think about coordinating the influence of different components within preference optimization, suggesting a parallel pipeline to analyze real-time impact and adjust component roles based on the current PO stage on page nine.
Meng: From an engineering standpoint, seeing these dynamics help us understand why some candidates perform better than others when fine-tuning is useful for building more robust systems.
Lalam: Understanding the gradient alignment condition provides a measure that looks at alignment with the final-response dataset rather than just task performance directly, making it a retrospective and endpoint-relative metric on page twenty-seven <ref:2512.00778#pg2>.
TMLR Group Department of Computer Science Hong Kong Baptist University · RIKEN AIP The University of Tokyo
cs.LG
Submitted: 2025-11-30
Updated: 2026-10-13
License: http://arxiv.org/licenses/nonexclusive-distrib/1.0/
Importance score: 79/100
The gist: The gist Preference optimization (PO) is indispensable for large language models (LLMs), with fundamental methods such as direct preference optimization (DPO) and proximal policy optimization (PPO)
Key concepts
- Learning Paradigms
- This examines whether Preference Optimization (PO) methods behave more like supervised learning or reinforcement learning. It is determined by analyzing the stability of optimization dynamics, specifically the gradient dot product between the objective and expected negative log-likelihood of final responses. Positive dot products suggest stable, targeted learning, while fluctuating values indicate exploratory behavior.
- DPO Dynamics
- DPO exhibits supervised-like endpoint dynamics shaped by implicit targets derived from both winning and losing data. Initially, positive learning shapes targets toward favored responses (y+), but negative learning gradually dominates later to suppress over-reliance on y+, indicating a shift in how the model learns its final preferences.
- PPO Dynamics
- PPO demonstrates reinforcement-like endpoint dynamics characterized by orthogonal exploration and mildly conflicting local targets. Positive learning shapes the targets, while negative learning supports exploration. This structure maintains broad coverage of candidate responses in a stable manner, encouraging diverse outcomes during fine-tuning.
Terminology
Summary
The gist Preference optimization (PO) is indispensable for large language models (LLMs), with fundamental methods such as direct preference optimization (DPO) and proximal policy optimization (PPO) achieving great success, and this paper analyzes the optimization dynamics under the endpoint probe to reveal distinct algorithmic behaviors and understanding their causes.
Learning Paradigms
The paper examines whether PO methods align more with supervised learning or reinforcement learning by analyzing the stability of optimization dynamics in achieving final responses, which is measured by the gradient dot product between the learning objective and the expected negative log-likelihood of the final responses, cf., Eq. (3) on page 2. Supervised learning is characterized by relatively clear and stable targets, reflected explicitly from its gradient directions, while reinforcement learning has more indirect and dynamic learning targets [10, 26] on page 2. The stability is measured by the gradient dot product, across checkpoints, between the learning objective and the expected negative log-likelihood of the final responses, cf., Eq. (3) on page 2. Overall, positive dot products throughout PO suggest stable, targeted learning, while near-zero, negative, or fluctuating values are more consistent with exploratory behavior on page 2.
DPO Dynamics
The analysis of DPO reveals that it exhibits supervised-like endpoint dynamics with implicit learning targets shaped by both win and lose data and potentially by the current model parameters on page 2. The key observations regarding components are:
-
Positive and negative learning jointly shape the learning targets, with the influence of negative learning initially weak but gradually dominating on page 3.
-
Loss reweighting in DPO acts more like a regularizer, downweighting fully learned data rather than serving as a direct reward signal on page 3.
The overall dynamics show that DPO is consistently endpoint-directed under the probe, meaning that measured updates increase the likelihood of the final responses, aligning with the prevailing view of DPO as supervised-like yet revealing underlying mechanisms on page 3.
PPO Dynamics
PPO shows reinforcement-like endpoint dynamics with mostly orthogonal exploration, slightly shifting toward conflicting candidates and thus maintaining a broad coverage on page 2. The key observations regarding components are:
-
Positive learning alone shapes the targets in PPO, while negative learning supports exploration instead on page 3.
-
Loss reweighting reflects the learning dynamics of target shaping, conveying more information than raw advantages on page 3.
The overall dynamics show that PPO exhibits reinforcement-like endpoint dynamics, with local targets orthogonal yet mildly conflicting, which can encourage broad coverage of candidate responses in a relatively stable manner on page 7.
Component Control and Performance
The paper investigates how controlling the learning dynamics impacts model performance through controlled ablation studies on page 4. Key findings include:
**/ Components that hinder final responses may still improve performance, suggesting that properly adjusting their influence can be beneficial on page 4. **
For DPO, the analysis shows that positive and negative learning interact in a mutually constraining manner, while both y+ and y- contribute to shaping the final implicit targets which may differ from y+ on page 6. The preference weight is not a reliable preference signal because it is dynamic and model-dependent, as larger values of ωθdetach do not imply greater contribution to target shaping on page 6. For PPO, the middle- and top-weighted components exhibit negative impacts on the final responses, with the top-weighted data having a much stronger effect than low-weighted data on page 7.
Controlled Variants and Future Directions
The paper introduces controlled variants like cDPO and cPPO to test if component-level interventions predicted by G can produce measurable changes in performance on page 4. For DPO, the dynamic parameter λ = max min t−t1 t2−t1, 1, 0, which monotonically increases from 0 to 1 between t1 and t2 training steps, allows for modulating the strength of the regularization effect on page 26. For PPO, downweighting top-weighted samples in cPPO is suggested as a more promising approach for enhancing PO because it keeps the suppression signal while reducing how aggressively the policy is pulled away on page 13. The authors envision an opportunity for component coordination by coordinating the influence of individual components within PO, suggesting a parallel pipeline to analyze real-time impact and adjust component roles based on the current PO stage on page 9.
The results show that cDPO and cPPO variants achieve improved performance in controlled settings, providing directional evidence that PO methods may benefit from fine-grained, component-level control rather than broad benchmark claims on page 13. The analysis concludes by noting that the gradient alignment condition measures alignment with the final-response dataset rather than task performance directly, making the metric retrospective and endpoint-relative on page 27.
The paper is a scientific paper titled Understanding Negative Learning in Large Language Model Fine-tuning
which analyzes optimization dynamics under an endpoint probe to reveal distinct algorithmic behaviors and understanding their causes. The gist Preference optimization (PO) is indispensable for large language models (LLMs), with fundamental methods such as direct preference optimization (DPO) and proximal policy optimization (PPO) achieving great success, and this paper analyzes the optimization dynamics under the endpoint probe to reveal distinct algorithmic behaviors and understanding their causes.
How it works
-
The analysis diagnoses learning behavior by monitoring the gradient dot product between the learning objective and the expected negative log-likelihood over final responses, formulated in Eq. (3) on page 2.
-
Dynamics are classified as supervised-like when G remains positive, suggesting stable targets during training that align well with the directions of the final responses, and reinforcement-like for near-zero, negative, or fluctuating G on page 3.
-
In DPO, positive learning initially shapes targets toward y+, while negative learning prevents over-reliance on y+, and later negative learning takes the lead by suppressing y-, suggesting that overfitting to y+ is the primary reason for their exchanged roles on page 6.
-
In PPO, positive learning consistently shapes the targets while negative learning keeps offsetting it, thereby sustaining exploration, and loss reweighting reveals distinct roles across data ranges where top-weighted data are more likely to carry negative advantages and dispreferred responses to be unlearned on page 7.
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Controlled variants like cDPO and cPPO are introduced by adjusting the influence of individual components flagged by G, such as scheduling λ on log-ratios rather than modulating ω directly to adjust the balance between positive learning and negative learning on page 26.
Key Findings
-
DPO exhibits supervised-like dynamics when analyzed through its optimization dynamics, in line with common viewpoints, but the roles of positive and negative learning evolve over training, shifting from mutual constraint early on to negative learning dominating later on for target shaping on page 6.
-
PPO exhibits reinforcement-like endpoint dynamics because it maintains stable exploration with local targets orthogonal yet mildly conflicting, which can encourage broad coverage of candidate responses in a relatively stable manner on page 7.
-
Loss reweighting is not a reliable BT preference signal; samples with larger weights do not consistently contribute more to shaping the learning targets, and instead act as a regularizer against overfitting because they downweight pairs with small margins on page 6.
Key Findings
-
DPO exhibits supervised-like dynamics when analyzed through its optimization dynamics, in line with common viewpoints, but the roles of positive and negative learning evolve over training, shifting from mutual constraint early on to negative learning dominating later on for target shaping on page 6.
-
PPO exhibits reinforcement-like endpoint dynamics because it maintains stable exploration with local targets orthogonal yet mildly conflicting, which can encourage broad coverage of candidate responses in a relatively stable manner on page 7.
Improvements for AI systems
-
Improved DPO dynamics allow for dynamic modulation of learning balance via controlled DPO (cDPO) by scheduling a dynamic parameter λ to adjust
the balance between positive learning and negative learning.
This allows training toalternate between reinforcement-like and supervised-like learning,
potentially leading to better performance than original DPO. -
Improved PPO dynamics allow for selective downweighting of data based on advantage magnitude, such as cPPO, which uses a hyper-parameter λ to control the degree of downweighting of top or middle-weighted samples. This is suggested by the finding that
downweighting top-weighted samples in cPPO is a more promising approach for enhancing PO.
-
Improved PPO dynamics allow for periodic alternation between reinforcement and supervised learning through hybrid PPO (hPPO) using a scheduler of λ based on sin(πt/t3). This can lead to
modest improvements over the original PPO
by alternating betweenreinforcement-like and supervised-like learning.
-
Component coordination pipeline can be implemented where a main model is trained with a chosen combination of basic components while sampling checkpoints analyze the
real-time impact of each,
allowing for an adaptive combination thatadapts to the current PO stage.
-
The diagnostic provides an endpoint relative measure, which, when coupled with direct win-rate evaluation after modifying objectives, can be used to assess if
the new targets are superior to the original ones,
offering a way to bridge the gap between gradient alignment and actual task performance.
Sources
- GPT-4 Technical Report
- Training a Helpful and Harmless Assistant with Reinforcement Learning from Human Feedback
- Enhancing Chat Language Models by Scaling High-quality Instructional Conversations
- Length-Controlled AlpacaEval: A Simple Way to Debias Automatic Evaluators
- KTO: Model Alignment as Prospect Theoretic Optimization
- Reasoning through Exploration: A Reinforcement Learning Framework for Robust Function Calling
- Adaptive Batch-Wise Sample Scheduling for Direct Preference Optimization
- Adam: A Method for Stochastic Optimization
- Reward Design with Language Models
- LLM Unlearning with LLM Beliefs
- DeepSeek-V3 Technical Report
- Skywork-Reward: Bag of Tricks for Reward Modeling in LLMs
- Decoupled Weight Decay Regularization
- ToolRL: Reward is All Tool Learning Needs
- Hermes 3 Technical Report
- Learning Dynamics of LLM Finetuning
- Insights into Alignment: Evaluating DPO and its Variants Across Multiple Tasks
- Proximal Policy Optimization Algorithms
- Spurious Rewards: Rethinking Training Signals in RLVR
- DeepSeekMath: Pushing the Limits of Mathematical Reasoning in Open Language Models
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